4WD Moke discussion

[moemoke]

Seems like there are 3 different rear suspension layouts between the white Darwin/Perth moke, the Quadra moke
and the ST mini. the Darwin/Perth moke seems to be the easiest to put into production.
The ST mini seems to use a donut on top of the trailing arm.
I also noticed that the ST mini was converted back to 2 wheel drive in '78 so maybe the 4wd bits were sent back to Aust
for further work.
Do we know what year the Quadra & the Darwin moke are?

[spider]

Moe, you're pretty on the money with that.

I haven't read any offical line on it anywhere, but when you have a real good look at the body changes and where everything is in the Gal Body Mokes (ie 80 on) they were re-arranged to make space for all the 4WD components. I read something somewhere (I'll try to remember where!) that the 4WD Mokes done here were just an experiment and where not going in to production or too expensive to make or something along these lines. I say that's utter rubbish. It would have cost Leyland a small fortune to re-tool just about every panel for the Gal Body Mokes and to what end? Certainly it was not done because they were galvanised! Those up to 79 would have done just as well for that. The Perth 4WD Moke, from the few pics I've seen of it is in a Gal Body Moke, so would be late 79 at the earliest.

The 4WD Mokes came frighteningly close to full produtcion. I have 2 pre-release adverts in Magazines, one which has an estimated price. These came via Leyland's Advertising Dept!

So IMO, the Gal Bodied Mokes where re-arranged to allow for production of these Variants, including as you feel (and I have the same thoughts) the rear subframe assy. Neat and what appears to be highly functional.

The Quadra's rear set up is really not much short of diabolical! It uses the Drive Shafts (inc the uni-joints) as a Suspension Linkage with the Rear Diff as a pick-up point! Poor engineering in my opinion, but much as I might knock it, it does work. I'll find out what year the body is on this one, but I think - not sure - that in the time Max had it, he flipped it on a Moke Club Trip and it got fairly damaged (it was actually the start of a dark chapter for the SAMC but that's for another day) and it was re-bodied.

The ST Mini I thought the first time I look at the pics, had rubber cones that where drilled out (to reduce the spring rate?) but on closer inspection, they are something else again. Maybe Industrial Machinery Mounts? I actually rather like the set up of this one, but since it doesn't use a full subframe, it appears to rely on the stiffness (or added stiffness) of the body a lot. I don't think it would incorpoate well in to a Moke as you'd need to raise the rear tray a far bit or make pockets. I thought it said somewhere that in later times it was again back to 4WD?

[Tim]

In Jon Pressnell's book he says something about the UK 4wd moke as having rubber cones inside upside down flowerpots with supporting plates at the side. Given that the ST Mini was supposed;y built in a week from the 4wd moke, they would have re-used the suspension. I'll type it all in tonight if I can't find anything better to do. 


Tim

[bnicho]

The Quadra's rear set up is really not much short of diabolical! It uses the Drive Shafts (inc the uni-joints) as a Suspension Linkage with the Rear Diff as a pick-up point! Poor engineering in my opinion, but much as I might knock it, it does work. I'll find out what year the body is on this one, but I think - not sure - that in the time Max had it, he flipped it on a Moke Club Trip and it got fairly damaged (it was actually the start of a dark chapter for the SAMC but that's for another day) and it was re-bodied.

I've read in The Mini Experience that Quadra has been rebodied at least once.  The rear suspension and most probably the diff in Quadra is based on Triumph Herald parts.  I doubt any of the factory prototypes used that setup. 

Cheers,

[Terry]

Hi,I have tried to split the discussion about the Factory 4wd Moke, Clubman, Ant and other references that were particularly not about Spiders work on the Quadra Moke into this thread to try and lessen the confusion and make the original thread easier to follow.

It was not possible to split everything cleanly so there maybe some odd references in each article.

The original thread can be found here, https://www.mokeforum.com.au/index.php/topic,8716.0.html

Terry

[spider]

Thanks Terry, good move 

I've read in The Mini Experience that Quadra has been rebodied at least once.  The rear suspension and most probably the diff in Quadra is based on Triumph Herald parts.  I doubt any of the factory prototypes used that setup. 

Cheers,

Yes, that is right, Triumph Herald rear end, a real Triumph in engineering stupidity!

This is one of the pre-release adverts





(even a reference to the NSW MC MKI!)

That magazine is dated Nov / Dec 1978. At that time, a 1275 Californian was retailing for $3900 and the 4WD (as per that article) under $5000.

When looking for this one, I found another pre-release reference to it in a road test of a Californian, (that one was dated Jan 1979), it's in A3 format. I'll scan it if anyone wants to read it, but it's only about 2 lines worth. I do have another pre-release advert, better than that ^ if I can find it!

[Maddog]

Anyone know much about the one that is in Perth? MD, do you know the owner or where it is?

Sorry Spidey - I have deliberately avoided that Moke due to the high cost of divorce these days. I am aware it is in Perth, and believe it is being rebuilt. I'll do some digging and see what I can find.

The Perth 4WD Moke, from the few pics I've seen of it is in a Gal Body Moke, so would be late 79 at the earliest.

It is definitely a side fill, and looks to be an early one. It has the two mystery holes in the passengers side pannier, and the early style heater etc. Interestingly (for the spot weld counters among us ) it has the earlier aluminium front badge, but the much later flat wiper motor (with the blade hanging over the side of the windscreen). Perhaps this says something about how long it took to get it right? But other than that, a standard white Californian with blue trim, snow tyres and funny steering wheel.

It does seem to have a strange gearshift pattern though, with reverse to the right and up. Is this because of the extra 4WD bits in the gearbox?

The motor is also a surprise - described as a 998, it looks a lot like a 1275 to me! Thermostat housing bolts, angled heater tap and clutch end breather. Maybe they had fixed the gearbox problems by then! No badge on the grill though...

I agree - it seems very close to the final product. Nothing looks rough or bodged - it even has a proper printed gearknob for 2wd/4wd. Very much what you would have bought if things had gone differently....


Cheers, MD.

[Tim]

Below is the text of the section in Pressnell's book about the UK developed single engined 4wd Mokes.


I don't like re-printing large amounts of anyone's work, but I think that under fair use laws it is allowable for study and reference purposes. If you want to see the pictures (they don't show any technical details) then buy the book. If you are at all interested in the history of the Mini or Moke then this is THE book to have. Get it through Watto and you help everyone out.  http://bmcexperience.com.au/books-and-dvds/general-mini-history-books/mini-the-definitive-history-by-jon-pressnell.html


Tim

The four-wheel-drive Moke
If the Twini-Moke was never going to make a feasible production car, it did at least have an important spin-off: it led to the creation – under the direction of Issigonis - of three single-engined Mokes fitted with four-wheel drive. The first car was apparently on the road by September 1963, and of the other two cars one had a Cooper engine and was based on another of the original batch of prototype Mokes - complete with pannier-less sides.
According to Jack Daniels the motivation for the4x4 Moke was specifically to win back military custom after the British army had cold-shouldered the original front-wheel-drive Moke. "The four-wheel-drive Moke would have been done for the British Army in the first instance. We thought four-wheel drive was what they wanted. The next thing that was essential was bigger wheels, to give more ground clearance, so we did a 4x4 Moke again, with 12in wheels - which meant we had to change the rear radius arms."


Adapting the Mini power train to give four-wheel drive constituted something of an innovation. "It was the first time a transverse engine had been used with four-wheel drive," Jack Daniels told the author."I kicked myself afterwards. If only I'd patented it at the time I’d be as rich as a prince now!"To achieve drive to the rear wheels, Daniels put a bevel gear on the side of the regular Mini's final-drive spur gear and drove that into a pinion. This gave a high speed propshaft, geared up from the final drive. To disconnect drive to the rear, a simple dog clutch on the nose of the differential was used, operated by a lever on the side of the transmission tunnel.


An intriguing detail was that the rear differential apparently used a casing left over from the ill-fated R-type MG, an all-independently-sprung racer of which only ten were made, and on which ex-MG man Daniels had worked before moving to Cowley in 1935. To fit all this into the Moke demanded a new rear structure. "We had to throw away the subframe, as you couldn't get the driveshafts out through it, so the 4x4Moke had two angled gussets - two very heavy plates - anchored to the heelboard and rear floor, to give strength to the rear end and to the diff unit, which was sandwiched between these two plates," remembers Dave Seymour. "There was a completely new suspension, housing the Moulton dry-cone units in alloy 'flower pot' castings."


A further change necessitated by the mechanical layout was to go to a high-mounted dashboard gearchange, in the style of that found on the Renault4 and Citroen 2CV, recalls Seymour. "Because the drive to the propshaft was going down where normally the gearchange went, a housing was put on the end of the engine and the selector rods were taken through there and the gear linkage exited to a gearchange on top of a little tunnel, operating horizontally in push-pull fashion off a short vertical gear lever.”


The 4x4Moke was pushed forward with enthusiasm by Issigonis - who, as mentioned earlier, always seemed to take a pleasure in anything involving the Moke. 'Mr Issigonis has requested that extreme urgency is attached to this project,' an internal BMC memo of 1964 reads, while a July 1964 list of parts required for the project is annotated 'Urge with all speed' in his hand.


By 1965 the all-drive Moke was being hawked around the world's military. After Timo Makinen had attempted to persuade the Finnish airforce and navy to take the regular Moke,  one of the 4x4 prototypes was lined up for despatch to Finland, while towards-the end of the year an officer of the Australian army viewed the car. The greatest interest, though, came from Colonel Herman Nadler of the US Army Tank-Automotive Command, who had already borrowed a Twini-Moke for trials.


By January 1966 he had received a 4x4 Moke for test, and in February, by which time he had fitted it with 13in wheels he wrote to Issigonis, buoyant about the car's prospects. 'Confidentially we feel that the Mini Moke 4x4has a vast potential for sale in this country in that it is a lightweight vehicle with proven components, which in addition to normal terrain-may be used on off-road terrain as well as snow. With some small modifications to enhance the saleability of the vehicle, it should prove to be a profit-making vehicle in the near future. Since its price is right, I believe it will be a strong   competitor for the Jeep, Scout and Toyota 4x4vehicles.' Nadler became an enthusiastic lobbyist on behalf of the 4x4 Moke -to the extent that he commissioned artwork for two tracked variants he felt would be useful in Vietnam -but Jack Daniels always felt uneasy about the American officer.


I was always of the opinion that they weren't going to buy cars from anyone else anyway; all they wanted was to know how other people had done certain jobs, to see what they could crib. Nadler was a foxy man. I’m confident that he was sly. I always thought it was wrong to send the cars to America,” Daniels told the author. In this judgement, although no impropriety was suggested, he may not have been mistaken: in 1978 the loan of the 4wd Moke –and an Ant -to Nadler was the subject of correspondence between a Leyland Cars legal advisor and a now-retired Daniels, regarding a court case in Nevada involving Nadler, and in which it seems Scotland Yard had an interest.


In the end, as we know, the 4wd Moke never made it to production. Quite simply; the train of thought it had launched led to the development instead of a tailor made four-wheel-drive vehicle felt to be closer to the requirements of the armed forces. This was the Austin Ant, a vehicle whose only relationship to the Mini was in the use of a transverse A-series powerpack. It is worth stressing this point, as the Ant is often erroneously described as being Mini based; further adding to the potential for confusion, references in the Issigonis papers to a 4x4 Moke often in fact relate to the Ant. As the one project flowed seamlessly into the other during 1966, this is understandable, but it is a trap for future historians.


Pressnell, Jon., 2009, Mini:The Definitive History, J H Haynes & Co Ltd,United Kingdom,272pp

[spider]

Tim,

Thank you very much for going to the trouble of typing that out. There is a lot there and that would have taken you some considerable time. How's the fingers?

I have to say that I knew next to none of that. Some of it has me a gasp!

There are just so many points there. I was always of the impression the the various Armies around the world lost interest in the Moke quite early on and just how early on they had a single engine 4WD runner. And it was the Yanks who first fitted 13" wheels (?) It (as usual!) also raises more questions than it answers!

I've just placed an order for the book.

I'll digest that some more.

[Tim]

Spider, I scanned it, but the optical character recognition lost about half the spaces, so I had to correct all the errors. 


I read it a while back and forgot it. As you say, it does answer a lot of questions but it also raises several. I think it explains where the drivetrain for the 4wd rallycross mini came from, but it makes me wonder about the pictures of the 4wd Moke in the inspection bay at Longbridge that watto mentioned. Perhaps the reason the Australian guy didn't remember it was that it was really one of the UK Mokes? Time to try to dig out that issue of TME.


Tim

[moemoke]

It seems all of the moke development in that book was done in the UK and prior to '66
although there is a fair gap between then an '78 when the US.
I'm begining to think Leyland Australia may have gone there own way maybe from 78 onwards
either improving on the UK system or making their own.
You'd think that the logical way to go would be copy the UK mini, then maybe the Quadra was the
next development and then finally the Darwin one as a pre-production version.
So Spider when can you get some info on the Bathurst mokes rear end. 

[spider]

I sent an email to Pete a couple of days ago and just got a reply this afternoon.

The one at Bathurst was built in Feb 1977 and is still in a 77 shell. The White one in Perth is a 1980 model. The one that was sent to Longbridge is another yet again (built the same time as the Perth one), but it was never completed. It was sent over without an engine / gearbox and some other bits. He didn't include this one in his tally as it was never completed nor ever driven. It was sent back here but it arrived around the same time as when he retired so he doesn't know what happened to it.

Moe, the rear end in the Bathurst Moke is essentially the same as that in the Perth one, or at least that's how I saw it. Being a development model it is possible and likely that it has a few different varieties through it in it's early life.

[smokey]

   Interesting discussion lads
       Smokey

[Mazy]

Spider, I wish that you were with me this morning.......

I had just parked Mazy in a shopping centre carpark in Nowra when the man who'd just parked next to me at about the same time grabbed my attention ..... he commented on my Moke resto and then proceeded to tell me that he was working at the Zetland factory when the last Mokes came off the line. He then said that they were even working on a 4WD moke...... my jaw dropped.... and in a flash of a second I was dreading not being more conversant with all the stuff referred to here! I wished that you were there in order to have had an intelligent conversation with him about it, rather than the drivel that passed my lips  He said that he thought from memory that it was green, that they had all sorts of trouble with the diff and he didn't know what happened to it in the end. That's about it. (and I have no contact details for him  )

   Mazy

[spider]

Spider, I wish that you were with me this morning.......

I had just parked Mazy in a shopping centre carpark in Nowra when the man who'd just parked next to me at about the same time grabbed my attention ..... he commented on my Moke resto and then proceeded to tell me that he was working at the Zetland factory when the last Mokes came off the line. He then said that they were even working on a 4WD moke...... my jaw dropped.... and in a flash of a second I was dreading not being more conversant with all the stuff referred to here! I wished that you were there in order to have had an intelligent conversation with him about it, rather than the drivel that passed my lips  He said that he thought from memory that it was green, that they had all sorts of trouble with the diff and he didn't know what happened to it in the end. That's about it. (and I have no contact details for him  )

   Mazy

Un-real eh?     What are the chances!       It really is a small world!

Pete mentioned that that incomplete one that was sent to the UK (and came back), he seemed to recall was Green!

My mate who owns the Quadra came by yesterday to pick up his engine / gearbox. He has met up with some of the ex-employees and they filled him in on a bit of info on these cars.